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FINISHED - 2014 09 02 - WS83 - Human Rights for the Internet : From Principles to Action - Room 9
 Welcome to the United Nations | Department of Economic and Social Affairs

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WS 83

The following is the output of the real-time captioning taken during the IGF 2014 Istanbul, Turkey, meetings.  Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the session, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.

>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you, Deirdre.  Is Gareth on board?  Yes, okay.  Great.  Thank you.  Is Gareth on board?  Yes, okay, thank you.
>> Is he first?  Robert?  Robert?  Robert?  Is he first?
>> ROBERT BODLE: This is terrific.  I'd like to thank -- can everyone hear me?  This is wonderful.  I'd like to thank everyone for being here.  This is a great room.  This is a good turnout.  Welcome to Human Rights for the Internet: From Principles to Action.  Workshop 83.  So primarily this workshop talks about how the Internet rights and principles Charter of Human Rights and Principles for the Internet has been directly implemented and also how initiatives -- how initiatives have developed the objectives of the charter.  So we have two emphases.  My name is Robert Bodle, by the way, and I am co-chair of the Internet Rights and Principles Coalition, and a professor of communication in new media studies in the United States.  I'd like to introduce the format briefly.  Then we'll go to our two panels, our two subpanels.  So we have an interactive Round Table.  It's a large panel of luminaries, but I will be dividing -- and I will introduce our two panels -- a short discussion following each group.  So we'll start with the first group and then move -- have a short discussion, move on to the second group, have a longer discussion.  And then we have -- we welcome your participation in the second half of this workshop, and we will conclude with an exciting announcement.
So first I'd like to introduce the first group.  I'd like to introduce my co-chair, Marianne Franklin, professor of global media politics in London, who organised this panel and who will provide some background on the charter.  I'd also like to introduce Gareth Hughes, a member of Parliament of the New Zealand green party.  Carlos Alfonso, director of the institute of society in Rio, and consultant to the Internet steering committee as well as active in Marco civil.  I'd like to introduce Hanane Boujemi.  Silvia Grundmann working for the Council of Europe in Strasbourg as head of the media division in the media information society of the directorate general Human Rights and rule of law.  And finally to round out group one, Serhat Koc, founding partner of Guneli & Koc law firm.  I'd like to now go to Marianne.
>> MARIANNE FRANKLIN: Good morning everybody.  We're just writing down a Web site address.  Just two seconds.  Good morning everybody.  We just are writing down a Web site address.  Just two seconds.  Good morning, Gareth.  
Good morning.  Everyone.  Good morning, Gareth, so you -- down under, New Zealand, thank you for joining us.  My job is to provide context for the -- which has been the result of -- disagreement, but eventually output to produce a wonderful document of which we are very proud, and this job would be with you in real life in -- stuff to hold your hands.  We are (?) customs.  We currently have a flying squad driving to the airport with cash to pay the necessary amount to free the Charter of Human Rights and Principles, so they can be here and meet space with you.

(Technical difficulties)

Development of recognizable tools and instruments (?) declaration of Human Rights.  And covenants that have flowed from the union -- the UDH.  So it's actually modeled on something we all recognize and UN Member States have got behind.  But what it's done is it's framed, and it did in 2010, 2011, remember that time, (?) happened since then when the Arab uprisings were taking place.  The situation then is we were talking about many different issues and many different Human Rights, many different sorts of ideas about how to govern the Internet, Human Rights like freedom of expression, privacy, and also rising issues like access, what is access, is that a right or is it not a right?  (audio difficulties) a space in which we could bring all these issues together, discussions about the Internet and its future in terms of design -- interconnect with very important Human Rights issues.  Counsel to sit down and make a document that could speak to governments, that could speak to the organisations, that could work in schools and universities, critical conceit, incredible ambition to think you could do all that in one document.  Even if at the same time they may disagree with certain appoints.  So the charterer, which will be with you shortly, is 21 clauses.  It is based on existing rights, as we understand them under international law.  It is also an aspirational document, so there are clauses, for instance, within clause 8 about privacy where we talk about issues then that have now become hot topics now.  We have talked about surveillance in the charter.  Whether we talk about it as a right or a means by which certain other rights will be enabled is a conversation we had at the time, and we hope to continue.  We talked about the right to development, using, of course, the expression right in its more broad understanding, and we've talked about we have a whole clause devoted to the rights of young people and to the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which as you all know is also entered into the UN international law and norms set of documents.  So it's an exciting project.  Human Rights on-line has come of age in the last two years.  The UN Human Rights counsel has recognized that how many rights on the on-line environment is now as important as they are off-line, important recognition.  We would like to thank Frank LaRue, and the special rapporteur for the enormously important input he gave to the initial drafting of the charter.  And we are very thank that Frank LaRue was able to bring this idea to the UN table that Human Rights for the on-line environments actually need recognizing and implementing.  
Because things have changed.  Young people understand privacy in different ways, for instance.  Privacy has become an even more important issue for how we can actually express ourselves, interact and get things done on-line, and a lot of these issues are both new, are both even more politically complex, technologically complex, economically complex, but many of the issues that the charter contains are very, very, very old.  Old in the good ripe red wine sense of the term.  They are issues that will be with us for time immemorial.  The right to say what you wish without being put into prison, beheaded or harassed.  The right to assemble in an on-line space without being imprisoned, beheaded or harassed, without being bullied, okay?  So the Internet space that we're talking about, the Internet we are addressing in the charter of Human Rights is the Internet that we understood four years ago is it's the Internet we understand now as it changes in terms of service and provision but it's very much the vision of the future that we as a cross sector coalition within the IGF wish to see, fully recognizing that there are deep, deep differences about what a right is, what a right should be, and of course as our first clause and our first sentence says, if you do not have access, both physical access and both the sorts of access we need to be able to interact with people and get goods and services and behave as fully fledged citizens on-line without that access, everything else that flows from the Internet is irrelevant.  
So my final point, Internet, we mean not just the tubes, and the satellite connections which are very important, all the software we're talking about, it's design in the fullest sense, its access and how it's used around the world in different ways and also the means by which it's governed, substantial Human Rights and rights-based governance.  Here we are five years on and today I want to enjoy hearing how the charter itself has become something that people are using in different parts of the world and across different sectors.  I hope that gives you enough of an introduction.  Thank you very much.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you, Marianne.  That was terrific.  Welcome Gareth Hughes, remotely.
>> GARETH HUGHES: Thank you very much.  Can you hear me?
>> MARIANNE FRANKLIN: Can we have it a bit louder?
>> Sure, I might have to speak up a tad.  Can you hear me now?
>> ROBERT BODLE: We can, it sounds great.
>> GARETH HUGHES: Brilliant (?) from down in New Zealand.  With me is Britney Travis.  She's a recent graduate from the university with a law degree.  She's with me over the last year in developing our Internet Rights and Freedoms Bill and working with me through the process.  So it's nice to have Britney with me.  We have an election campaign here.  It's in 17 days so I've taken a night off from the campaign to be able to participate and I wish I could be there in person, but unfortunately I can't.  So I'd like to talk to you about what we've done in New Zealand.
So perhaps -- about four months ago, five months ago, we wrote the Internet rights and freedom bill, the first bill sourced by a political party in New Zealand and what we want to do is -- the IRPs charter, which is to protect off-line rights in the on-line world.  So the inspiration out there for our process is of course the UN IRP's charter to grow an on-line global movement for Internet rights.  We research continually what was occurring in other countries, and that was an inspiration.  Our law commission in New Zealand has done some work on privacy, and being a parliamentarian in our Parliament, what I've seen in is more passed by politicians who don't understand the law regarding the Internet that they're passing.  We're seeing a growing digital divide in New Zealand and a gradual erosion of on-line rights and privacy (?) been a controversial issue in New Zealand.  
So the rights and freedoms bill contains three key parts.  First is we've looked at our existing Bill of Rights in 1989 in New Zealand, and our human -- at our Human Rights Commission and legislation, and we've identified ten rights and freedoms for the Internet, pretty him on existing off-line rights in the on-line world, but we've also identified some specific on-line only rights and freedoms.  So very quickly, we've proposed the right to access, freedom from search, surveillance and (?), freedom of expression, freedom of association, the right to privacy, the right to encryption technology, the right to anonymity, the right to a safe and secure Internet, freedom of innovation and freedom from restriction.
We've proposed two (?) process (?) for New Zealand.  We want someone with the expertise, the ear of government to be able to provide strategic advice on the digital divide, future barriers, challenges of opportunities when it comes to the Internet and technology, gender issues, sustainability issues, very much a wide ranging mandate.  (?) New Zealand's existing Human Rights Commission, someone with the expertise in the Internet rights field, someone to enforce and protect our on-line rights.  This is very much marrying up what we've seen -- particularly off-line rights in the on-line world.  We propose the same enforcement powers and provisions of the existing Human Rights Commission but what we wanted to do was have a specialist, in a very interesting and important field.  
So we received very positive response both internationally from the IRP.  For my personal hero Lawrence (?) and some other international figures, also domestically as well.  Pleasingly, (?) which is the biggest tech conference in New Zealand, we received cross-party commitment from MPs from five parties to work together to help refine the bill.  So we've launched the bill in a proposal with an open source Web site, where people can read the -- explain the language.  We've received a great deal of comments (technical difficulties).  We've been going through that.  We've got some suggestions.  But with the election in two weeks I have to put it on the back burner and after the -- introduce it to Parliament (?) the other party.  So I believe in -- I understand in New Zealand, a growing movement.  It's one of the great movements, I believe, genuinely, of our age and our generation.  So I look forward to discussing it a bit with you.  Thank you very much.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Brilliant.  Thank you.  Thank you, Gareth.  Terrific.  Thank you for implementing the charter in the New Zealand Parliament and moving it forward.  Terrific.
Now I'm going to group one projects that have directly implemented the charter.  I'd like to move on to Carlos.
>> CARLOS AFFONSO: Thanks, Robert.  This is Carlos Alfonso from ITS in Rio.  I'll be very short and I think my contribution here is much more to tell a short history about how the charter and the work of the Internet rights and principles coalition impact a very domestic, on a national level experience.  So I think Brazil, her own Internet Bill of Rights.  So we have a law that deals with fundamental rights on the Internet in a very broad sense, that was approved in Brazil -- in April this year together with Annette M., I believe some of you are aware about this law and even tired of having (?) rights.  So my very quick contribution here is just to tell you that how the work on the charter on the Internet rights and principles have impacted this national experience.
So democracy (?) was approved this year in 2014.  But there is no coincidence that when the IGF was held in Rio in 2007 we had this very interesting meeting for the Internet rights and principles Dynamic Coalition, that at the time used to be called Internet Bill of Rights Dynamic Coalition.  And right after the IGF in Rio in 2007, the Brazilian government and the Italian government came out with a joint declaration saying, we are pro this idea of having Internet Bill of Rights, and of course it took some time to get the charter and to get the ten principles done in the international level through the Dynamic Coalition, but in this very same year, in 2007, that is the year in which the idea of having an Internet Bill of Rights for Brazil started.  And the on-line consultation that ended up resulting in the text that was sent to the Congress in 2011, this consultation began in 2009, and there was a very, I would say, strict relation between on Internet level the work of the charter and the work of the ten principles on the IRP here in the IGF, and the domestic level experience.
So just to be brief on the Marcos review itself.  The Marcos review I know is hard to translate because it doesn't mean much in English, but we can call it the Brazilian Internet Bill of Rights.  So this -- this piece of legislation that has been approved this year tackles a lot of important rights that are featured in the ten principles of the Dynamic Coalition here in the IGF, and I can mention a lot of them such as right to privacy, net neutrality, freedom of speech that appears all over the place in this legislation.  I have my own like I would say favorite provisions from the Brazilian Internet Bill of Rights.  I would call just two that are very broad but very important in a way, because apart from talking about net neutrality, privacy, intermediary liability, open standards and a lot of other very hot topic, this law has a provision that says the interpretation of this law will be taking into account, in addition to its principles and objectives, it will be taking into account as well the nature of the Internet, its use -- its common usage, and the importance of the Internet to the promotion of human economic, social and cultural development.  So this is a very strong provision that we have in the federal law now in Brazil.  This is Article 6 of the Brazilian Internet Bill of Rights.  And Article 7 says, the access to the Internet is fundamental to the exercise of citizenship, and then it goes on talking about the rights of privacy and everything.
So this is just to make a connection between the work on the Internet on the international level, on the ten principles and the charter in a very practical and domestic national level and experience which is the approval of the Marcos Civil.  I have to say it's very fortunate that we had the approval of the Marcos review in this year, in 2014, in the very same year we had the NETmundial in Brazil, so I see a connection between the work we have been doing on the governance level of the Internet and same the work we have been doing in the regulatory level of the Internet.  So I think there is some very interesting connection between governance and regulation of the Internet here.  So that will be my contribution, and thanks, Marianne, for that.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you, Carlos.  Making very clear links between the IRP and Marcos Civil.  Very exciting.  I'd like now to turn to Hanane.
>> HANANE BOUJEMI: Yes, well, congratulations for New Zealand and Brazil as well for, you know, the achievements so far, and I think New Zealand was a little bit quicker than Brazil in adopting the principles, which is not the case for -- so the Internet Governance Programme was specifically targeting Civil Society in the Middle East and not Africa.  We have decided to adopt the ten principles emerging from the Internet charter, and we'll launch a campaign, a rights campaign.  Unfortunately I don't have the design because I'm going through the same challenge as Marianne.  I can't get the material into Turkey.  It's a customs issue.  It has nothing to do with the content.  But we have designed -- I'm not sure if we can display from the screen so you can see it.  We designed a campaign based on the ten principles in a simple way to be promoted with the intention to build capacity about Internet rights on-line.  We launched two versions initially, both in Arabic and English, and we had, like, 5,000 or 6,000 endorsements so far for the ten principles.  
In our case we work mostly in capacity building and introducing the concepts of what are Human Rights on-line, and I think it was really a great experience to test, you know, the ground and see what is the knowledge gap that is existing in the -- not at the level of kind of, you know, discussing these principles with our governments because it's quite a long shot at the moment.  I mean, what's happening in the Internet sphere in general is -- the pro Internet rights and so on, so it's a long shot.  I think Civil Society has a long way to go before they can be in a position to sit down at the same table with governments to discuss whether we should have Human Rights on-line.  
So the work that we do is very like -- at the basic level of bridging the knowledge gap as far as Internet rights and concern.  We know we're kind of doing a good job because somehow we got a lot of feedback from communities and organisations we're working with, and we're trying to scale the work for people to take the lead locally for people to promote these principles.  And the good point is that we have a lot of local organisations on board who are willing to localize even more the content because the Middle East and Africa is not only about Arab-speaking countries. We have the Farsi-speaking countries.  We have the Kurdish communities.  
So I was really excited when I got a request, because we put a very simple design to show why people should care actually about Human Rights on-line, and they just decided they want to translate the content into for example, Farsi, to outreach the Farsi-speaking communities in that region, and we got also Kurdish and for the first time I got to know that we have 110 million Kurdish-speaking people, and I think it's great.
So the point is to translate the work, scale it locally, you know, widespread the word about Internet rights on-line, and I think the more we engage people in the discussion, well, at the very basic level, they would be more aware that they can actually advocate for these rights.  The intention is to be able to, you know, be on a same, you know, level with the government so we can convince them that we have to do something about preserving the basic rights in the case of the Arab region, which is freedom of expression.  This is something that is of prime concern with regards to Human Rights on-line.  
I mean, I know that we -- I mean, in the region we went through a quite difficult patch, you know, and that happened because ultimately social media and the Internet helped, you know, provide a platform for people to express themselves, but I have to admit that what happened in the region is kind of causing a reverse effect.  
So I don't think we have more freedom now because due, unfortunately, to the very tough political situation, the governments are more kind of on a hard line side of, you know, implementing policy.  So at the moment it's like a transition phase, and the people using the Internet at the moment have to, you know -- can feel the effect, you know, of the decisions of different governments in the region, I mean, from Tunisia, launching the IG in the Middle East, and the programs that we're implementing programs we're implementing at the moment is with the prime kind of aim to bring more people to the discussion.  This year we tried to have a fellowship programme from -- for Civil Society, from the Arab region, to come to the globalized (?) to immerse in the discussion and be more exposed to these kinds of environments, and I have to admit being to the IGF for nine years now, this is the first time there is a large group from the Arab region from Civil Society who made it here finally.  So it took us nine years, you know, to kind of bring that important segment of the Internet user from the Arab region, and I think we -- we have a long way to go, but I'm very confident that we will get there, maybe, I don't know -- in the case of Brazil, it was seven years.  I hope it will be the same for us and we can be at a level where we come back here and say, well, you know what?  We have convinced our governments to either adopt a Bill of Rights -- you know, and be on-line.  Thank you.
>> -- you know, for basically the equivalent of NSA.  Unfortunately the U.S. does not give the best example to countries in the Arab region because, you know, they say, hey, well -- the U.S. is spying on everyone, why don't we just do that.  So it's really a very difficult time.  
We thought that probably the Arab Spring would open the doors for us to, you know -- it would be easier for people to integrate the wave of, you know, promoting Human Rights on-line, but I think it's really, really difficult, and I can feel it because I'm doing groundwork in the Middle East, and, you know, I don't think, you know, some governments are really ready to adopt these kinds of principles.  We will carry on doing the work.  We will try to engage more people, you know, from the grassroots, literally, you know, to be able to build a movement, you know, but in a positive way, without -- we're not trying to instigate trouble but we're trying to raise awareness about these rights and help people understand better, you know, the link between Human Rights and Internet, Human Rights and Internet Governance, that's completely another discussion, because there is a massive knowledge gap with regards to IG in the Middle East and the programs we're implementing at the moment is with the prime kind of aim to bring more people to the discussion.  
This year we tried to have a fellowship programme from -- for Civil Society from the Arab region to come to the global IGF to (?) and I have to admit being to the IGF for nine years now, this is the first time there is a large group from the Arab region from Civil Society who made it here finally.  So it took us fine years to kind of bring that important segment of the Internet user from the Internet region, and I think we have a long way to go but I'm very confident that we will get there, yeah?  Maybe, I don't know -- in the case of Brazil it was seven years.  I hope it will be the same for us and we can -- we can be at a level where we come back here and say, well, you know what?  We have convinced our governments to either adopt a Bill of Rights or, you know -- be on-line.  Thank you.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you, Hanane, for bridging the knowledge gap, taking the lead at the grassroots, to help implement the principles in the Middle East and in North Africa.  I also want to give recognition to Hivos, which is responsible for translating the IRP charter into Arabic.  And thank you for that.  I'd like to introduce Silvia Grundmann.
>> SILVIA GRUNDMANN: Thank you very much, Robert.  A warm thank you to everybody.  I'm from the Council of Europe, and we do standard setting in the CDMSI, the steering committee for media and information associate for our 47 European Member States.  So the steering committee is the working body, and then the -- the stakeholders, and they then bring this work into a living instrument into some soft law.
So I thought I should just focus very briefly on our most recent action there, namely, on our work product, the guide to Human Rights for Internet users.  And it looks like this.  And we also have a Turkish version, right in time for the IGF.
Now, why do I do this?  Because there is a very strong link to the charter and the principles, and so our guide is heavily inspired, and that is thanks also to the experts that we have here from the IRPC that worked on the guide, and we have Wolfgang Benedict here, also Marianne Marzooky worked on it and Dixie Hawtin.  So I'd like to thank them once again for their devotion to the topic.  And I think it is an excellent example how we all can team up and how we can hammer the Human Rights issues from different angles, different perspectives and feeding into each other -- each other's different activities, and I would say that generally speaking the Internet is no exception when it comes to Human Rights.  You have to have a long breath and you have to be a marathon runner.  And so the more we team up and (technical difficulties) angle, I think the more success we can have.
Now, the guide will just very briefly introduce you to it and then hope that you'll get copies and take a look.  Basically it has three parts.  The first part is heart, so to speak, of the soft law, and that is commitment expressed by the Member States, the commitment to the principles, and it is a compilation of the existing standards.  So there is nothing new in there, but it is a reminder to the Member States, please implement.  Because that is where we are generally lacking action.  
Now, the second part is then the guide as such, which is built up as a tool for the Internet user, and it has different target groups there.  We have explicitly children in there, and I also give you an outlook for the future.  We for the future would like to also arrive at a child-friendly version.  We are not there yet.  We are at the moment just building up our Web site for the guide to promote it.  Everything, you know -- the Internet, a great tool, but then when it comes to the nitty-gritty things of technicalities, we also face obstacles and problems of resources, and everything.  But we'll be getting there, but be patient with us.
Are there questions -- if there are questions or you want to go into some intellectual challenges, we will help you with the last part there.  We have attached an explanatory memorandum, and you should be able to find.
(technical difficulties)
-- your questions or even answers to them in this last part, and also on the Web site we will have a connection, I'm ready for any other questions you might have, and I would let you know that we have a Council of Europe stand up at the village where my colleague Olivia is there.  English, Turkish versions, so please, you can also find other material there.  And we were a bit more lucky with our guide.  We didn't have to pay ransom to get it here, but Lufthansa tried also to do everything to make it difficult for us and we arrived very late last night so we could only pack out our boxes this morning.  Thank you very much.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you Silvia.
And congratulations on getting your pamphlets.  I'd like to introduce Serhat Koc.
>> DIXIE HAWTIN: Slight technical problem.
>> SERHAT KOC: Thank you.  Sorry for this late.  I'm Serhat Koc.  I'm independent technology lawyer, and I'm from Turkey.  I will be speaking as the spokesperson.  Of course myself is an independent information technology specialist, and I'd like to talk about Turkey's Internet code and our struggle with it and some comments on it, and if you have questions while I'm talking you can always ask after this meeting, or after this meeting you can ask, because it's very hard to understand some points.  So I would like to begin with my speech.  I will read it, in fact, so you can ask me anything.  It is outlined in the declaration of Human Rights.  Everyone has a right to freedom of expression.  This is so clear.  This is one sentence but it's so clear.  Everyone has a right to freedom of opinion and expression.  This right includes freedom to have opinions without interference and receive information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontier.  The private party fights for this, in fact, but the low number, I recall it, 5651 in Turkey, the low number -- in February -- yeah, in February 2000 (?) low number 5651 for URL-based blocking of Internet content.  We argued that with the Arab blocking the extent of censorship will be less visible to Internet users because while court orders were previously displayed on the blocked Web sites, in the new system we won't be able to see any warning, even the Web site owner cannot know which court order is has blocked his or her Web site.  So I'm leaving you to speculate about why they cannot access a Web site.  People want to be notified about what has been (?) to blocked Web sites and contents, such as (?) or VPN services.  Frankly, the government is -- and tele(?) of Turkey emailed ISPs by -- is it over or do I have time?
>> ROBERT BODLE: Ten seconds.
>> SERHAT KOC: Ten minutes?  Ten seconds?
>> ROBERT BODLE: Ten seconds.
>> SERHAT KOC: I'm skipping the conclusion.  The emailed ISP sent -- told them, please do your best to prevent people accessing the blocked Web sites.  We are VPNs, proxies, even they hijacked open DNS and Google DNS in Turkey, and the other thing that I must declare, in fact, the amended version of this --
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>> -- and the programs that we're implementing at the moment is with the prime kind of aim to bring more people to the discussion.  This year we tried to have a fellowship programme from -- for Civil Society from the Arab region to come to the global IGF to immerse, you know, in the discussion and be more exposed to these kinds of environments and I have to admit being at the IGF for nine years now there is the first time there is a large group from the Arab --
>> (?)
>> Okay.  I want say something about the low number 5651, because Serhat Koc mentioned something.  Some of the information you mentioned was not correct.  First of all, it's not (?) information of Internet users.  Additionally, the main object of this legislation is to protect children and young people from harmful content in the on-line environment.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Any other comments to that, or questions?
>> Hi, everybody, my name is Wolfgang Benedict, University of (?) Austria.  I was also involved in this process which was explained earlier, deliberation of the charter and also the translation of it into German language, but what I wanted to react now --
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>> EDUARDO BERTONI: -- some of the things that we are seeing in Latin America, and maybe around the world, is that judges and rule makers not always translate Human Rights standards to the on-line environment.  That is why we are talking about Human Rights on the Internet.  So since we are working with law students --
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-- I think that the best way to give you some sort of vision of what the new lawyers are thinking on the charter is to read a couple of comments that I received from the papers of my students.  One comment says, The charter's aim is (?) as well as commendable.  It is written in a succinct manner which may make the document --
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-- important things that the charter delivers and the challenges as well.  Of course, the aim of the charter is not to solve all the problem.  It is a document that is a reference that could be used as a reference, but (?) is not to solve all the problems.  And I think that these will be --
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>> -- by censoring thousands of Web sites, including a two-year ban on YouTube.  Maybe you -- the full name of this law is very important.  Code of publications on the Internet and separation of crimes committed by means of such publications.  So this is the only code in Turkey, and it says that suppression (?) because the government only takes Internet for fighting Internet and fighting crimes committed on Internet.  So turkey's current laws are only designed to protect minors.  They always say that, minors from harmful content.  Many of the sites are pornographic in Turkey but political (?) platforms and we do sharing sites, have also been banned by this law.  
I think that the best way to give you some sort of vision of what the new lawyers are thinking on the charter is to read a couple of comments that I received from the papers of my students.  One comment says, "The charter's aim is (?) as well as commendable.  It is written in a succinct manner which may make the document (gap) important things that the charter delivers and the challenges as well.  Of course, the aim of the charter is not to solve all the problem.  It is a document that is a reference that could be used as a reference, but (?) is not to solve all the problems.  And I think that these will be --
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>> -- by censoring thousands of Web sites, including a two-year ban on YouTube.  Maybe you -- the full name of this law is very important.  Code of publications on the Internet and separation of crimes committed by means of such publications.  So this is the only code in Turkey, and it says that suppression (?) because the government only takes Internet for fighting Internet and fighting crimes committed on Internet.  So Turkey's current laws are only designed to protect minors.  They always say that, minors from harmful content.  Many of the sites are pornographic in Turkey but political (?) platforms and we do sharing sites, have also been banned by this law.  Turkey blocks access to about 45,000 Web sites.  We don't know the exact number because they don't tell the real numbers.  These Web sites -- these numbers are beginning from the May 2007.  And this code is already -- all Internet activity and there haven't been a European code ruling against this code yet.  The Human Rights code ruling said that this code is about censorship.  
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-- and this is going to be changed by the government.  But the government changed it the wrong way.  I'll talk about maybe in the following.  Be able to see any warning.  Even the Web site owner cannot know which court order is has blocked his or her Web site.  So -- speculate about why they cannot access the Web site, people even want to be notified about what has been censored, because your blocking is about censoring only one little content, maybe postpone Facebook, maybe a comment on an -- not an entire Web page or a page on a Web site.  So (?) blocking forces all ISPs in Turkey to keep all logs for two years putting all our information into their hands.  These amendments raise concerns on violation of personal rights and privacy infringements, of course, and these increase government strong hold over the Internet by years.  
The amendments also -- in fact, enforce blocking orders coming from the government directly within four hours of receipt.  They forced all ISPs to be member of this association and they called it access -- association for access providers but use it only -- and according to these new provisions, ISPs are required to take all necessary measures to block (?) and mechanisms of alternative access, to block Web sites and content, such as (?) or VPN services.  Frankly, the government is -- and tele -- do I have time?
>> ROBERT BODLE: Ten seconds.
>> Ten minutes?  Ten seconds?
>> Ten seconds.  Okay.  Yeah, I'm skipping the conclusion.  They emailed ISPs and told them, please do your best to prevent people -- and the other thing that I must declare, in fact, the (?) of this law 5651 also shields the telecommunication staff from -- protects them from prosecution if they commit crimes during the exercise of their duties in the territory, hopefully -- and they're not subject to prosecution.  I will continue about this.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you.
I'd like to also acknowledge -- just to open it up before we go to our second group.  So if there are any questions, any quick questions.  And then some quick answers.  Can you introduce yourself before you ask your question?  Thank you.
>> Okay.  I want to say something about the low number of -- legislation, is to protect children and young people from harmful content in the on-line environment.  Additionally, Mr. Serhat Koc said that political blocks having implemented -- you also said that number and date of the court decisions are not mentioned.  If any Web site is blocked by a court decision, date of -- it's for Turkey, because logs are generally kept so as to prevent on-line crimes and to solve on-line problems associated with on-line crimes.
And last point I want to mention is that association of access providers, associate the personal --
>> ROBERT BODLE: Do you have a response?
>> Just a quick reply, one sentence.  My all comments are based on international reports from becoming independent associations, including European Commission, it's all on Internet.  Only the Turkish government says (?).
>> Hi, everybody, I'm Wolfgang Benedict.  Of (?), Austria.  I was also involved in this process, which was explained earlier, the deliberation of the charter and (?) to Turkey and freedom of expression, where we also looked at the situation of the Internet.  And we found some focus in certain fields and setbacks in particular in the field.  At the home page of the European Union delegation to Turkey and the peer review reports.  Thank you.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you.  I'd like to now turn to our second group.  Group No. 2.  Initiatives that underpin and develop the objectives of the charter and then we'll come back to discussion.  Eduardo Bertoni.
>> EDUARDO BERTONI: Thank you very much.  Thanks for the invitation to join this panel.  It's nice and I'm very happy to see too many people attending Human Rights on the Internet.  In Latin America and maybe around the world (?) is that judges (?) not only translate Human Rights standards to the on-line environment.  That's why we are about -- with the charter, with anybody.  It's a very, very important document.
The first thing that we did a couple of years ago, I think, after I had a conversation with Maria, into many languages, because when it was just in English and when it was just under discussion, maybe it was not the reference document for judges and rule makers.  So we -- we did the translation with the collaboration of law students, so that was -- the second thing that they want (?) charter in my classes, I am teaching one course, which is called Human Rights on the Internet.  And I -- I give the students the charter and some days -- new lawyers are thinking on the charter, is to read a couple of comments that I received from the papers of my students.  One comment says, the charter's aim is -- region, people can access the charter and can understand the charter in a very easy way.
Another student said, although the charter recognizes and extends the protection of the law to rights of individuals on-line, it fails to explain how -- what these rights should be protected.  So I think that this is some of the challenges that we have.  We have a document, well written, that we can explain the importance of translating Human Rights into the on-line environment, but we need to explain more -- inequalities call for new ways to address old problems.  This in no way means that the charter is not adequate, but like any other legal documents, written with the intention of becoming a reference, (?) important delivers, and challenges as well.  Of course the aim of the charter is not to solve all the problems.  It's a document that is a reference, to solve a generation -- the current generation of lawyers and -- that's why we are trying to work on this area with the future lawyers, which are the students in law schools.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you.  Thank you, Eduardo.  I forgot to introduce you properly.  Director of the center for studies at Palermo.
>> Thank you very much and thank you for the opportunity to discuss this with you today.  As Robert was saying, I'm a legal officer of Article 19 and if you're not familiar --
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>> -- to further flesh out so the principles are in the charter, but I'll get back to that.  But also in developing the national standards work with our regional offices to make sure that these principles trickle down to the national level and make their way in legislation.  I would very much -- we would very much agree with Eduardo's students in general and very briefly, I think I'd like to make three points in relation to the charter.  The first point is how it can be used to inspire more work and -- international such as the European connection on Human Rights, the African charter on human and people's rights, the American convention on Human Rights as well.  So I think the charter can be seen as a springboard for further efforts regionally, and in this respect I'll draw your attention to one of the workshops that is going to take place on Thursday, where we're -- this is really a starting point for developing further standards in the region.
So that takes me to my second point which is about (technical difficulties) one sheet of paper, or maybe a booklet, but in practice there are many more issues and problems that come up, and so Article 19 together with other partners works to develop aspects of it.  
So, for instance, I'd like to briefly talk in this portion on the international Human Rights to communication surveillance, so Article 19 was involved in this work, which is very much groups of Civil Society (audio difficulties) effort, with the electronic frontier foundation, access -- so far as Article 19 is concerned but with other organisations how to change these laws.  And as you'll see this is another booklet just to show how there are many more aspects to each of these rights on how to balance some of these rights together.  And so in relation to that, for instance, how to balance -- that comes up in interference governance discussion and Article 19 worked with a lot of other organisations such as consumer international, academia, Michael Guest, who developed principles on how to develop expression and copyrights in the digital age.  
So I think this is -- all things which are very much related to what the -- it's trying to achieve and contributing to it by fleshing it all out.  But I think we could think of other areas where similar work could be done and again, I'd like to refer to another workshop, which is going to take place at the IGF on -- an evidence-based framework for intermediary liability.  So (?) similarly we're saying -- net neutrality coalition, beginning to form, so there's much more to come.
Finally, just going back to the charter itself and looking at it from an international perspective and looking at it as living instrument, I think the -- the chart -- more generally in order to further strengthen the document as a reference point for policy makers, but also -- Internet -- follow more closely the language just to give you a quick example, when looking at the protection against all forms of crime, section 3, we're talking about everybody should be protected against all forms of crime, and then a number of them are mentioned, such as harassment, identity theft.  The problem Article 19 experiences in many countries is -- very exciting project and much more work to come.  Thank you.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you, Gabrielle.  Oh, we have remote participation.  We have two more speakers, I believe, and then we'll open it to questions.  So I want to thank Gabrielle, how it will be undergoing review again and we have a workshop on Thursday at 4:30, the IRP charter five years on, and I'd invite all of you to join that meeting.
I'd like to introduce now Helga Mieling, director of transport, innovation and technology, Austrian government.
>> HELGA MIELING: Thank you so much, and thank you for the invitation to this distinguished panel.  I'd like to underline the crucial role of the charter in the framework -- is it too loud?  I'm sorry.
>> Closer to the mic.
>> HELGA MIELING: Okay.  I'm sorry.  As for a success story I'd like to concentrate on the crucial role -- in Sao Paulo in April this year.  And I happened to participate on behalf of the Austrian delegation as an observer on the Human Rights, the principles, focusing on Human Rights and a roadmap how to achieve are revolution of the Internet Governance framework.  So focusing on the Human Rights group was quite a challenge because we -- in focusing on different backgrounds of the -- key words.  It was quite a challenge.  And there was an enormous time question.  Of course the credit goes to the chairperson of the respective group, but it was quite rewarding and in this background it was rewarding to have a common reference like the charter.  Therefore, it was a neutral tool, a legal basis --
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-- of all other existing (?) Human Rights based on a valid, effective legal basis.  And this was really very, very useful.
I submitted the charter to the (?) group.
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-- and he was very, very surprised to find that most of the work had already been prepared.  So for (?) calling for documentation, the charter provided clarity, legal clarity.  And this is (?) minimum concern is on Human Rights, does it matter (?) not imply downgrading.  States applying a higher degree of protection of Human Rights should certainly not downgrade the level of protection under rule of law.  On the contrary, they should rather be encouragement for positive development or the highest standard of global level.  And the Internet Rights and Principles Coalition could facilitate the process for concerns building and promoting Human Rights and human freedom.
Perhaps closer cooperation could be (?) such as the freedom on-line coalition.  But I have to say that our group here is a multi-stakeholder group because it is common forum for exchange of opinions.  We should certainly avoid duplication of efforts, but gauge synergies and cooperate to save (?) coherence, transparency and (?) participation.  In the (?) transition process of ICANN a coherent new version of the charter could contribute as a possible new global standard if applied, but by a new organisation managing the Internet.  
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>> -- we should certainly avoid the application of hope to save, coherence, transparency and code of participation.  (?) a new organisation managing the Internet.  So for the time being thank you.  Now we must all be aware that really challenges for the future, but the charter is already significant, the Internet Governance Forum, we've all been invited, and this is one of the major success stories.  Thank you so much.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you, Helga, for sharing how the charter was useful as a common reference document providing indispensable legal clarity within high pressure cooker situations and also (?).  I'd like to turn now to Charles, McCathie Nevile.  Charles is not here.  Due to time pressures, we've already discussed some of the challenges.  To the back of the room and I'd like to turn to remote participation.
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>> -- providing education, resource and shared economic growth, providing people the access to the information is a right but working in research, the same as absence on access to insurances.  Statements for your conservation to ICE -- by law, we should consider that each have the riot to the -- without which it cannot to, access to Internet is a basic human right in cyber age.  Yours pridefully, Alexander (?) Ukraine.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you for that.  Do we have other comments or questions for the panel?  And specifically, speaking to challenges of implementing their rights.  The charter.
>> Yeah, I just have one question.
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>> Thank you for that.  Do we have other comments or questions for the panel?  
>> I'm in putting the charter into the law, whether there is any time to develop mechanism to monitor and evaluate the successes of the chart -- implementation of the charter.  Thanks.
>> DIXIE HAWTIN: That's a very good point.  That's the next phase of the work and this workshop is the monitoring session, so this is (?) implementation.  But your point is definitely well-taken.  We need to start monitoring the charter work and also work that needs to be done on the charter, as Gabrielle told us.  Thank you.
>> Yes, thank you.  My name is Nadien from APC and I wanted to bring to your attention some work we've done this year on women's rights in particular and sexual rights.  So we've tried along with about 50 friend organisations from women's rights and Internet rights movements to clarify the crosscutting between gender, sexuality, Human Rights and the Internet in particular.  So we've come up with something that resembles a charter, like a mini-set of principles that we just launched in the morning, and so we wanted to sort of bring people's attention to this to see who's interested in discussing more the relationship between privacy and security and data on all these big questions with women's rights, sexual expression for LGBTs, the work of sexual rights activists which is very important on the Internet.  So we have many copies and anyone who is interested can talk to me and get a copy for their feedback.  Thank you.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you for that.  Other questions?
>> Thank you.  My name is Audra  (technical difficulties) becomes related to this idea of translating these principles into other languages, and it's not just about the translation of the Bill of Rights but of the terms and the concepts, like governance, for example, in and of itself is a hard term to translate, for example, into Arabic.  So how are you linking the translations that you're doing and how are you drawing on other projects that have to do with multilingualism on the Web and specifically there's a UNESCO initiative, I know, to develop a terminology for Internet Governance -- sorry, glossary for Internet Governance terms.  I know there are some local efforts in the Arab region to develop Arabic terminology.  So how are you linking these so that, you know, this is building not only on works in the Human Rights domain but in the very domain of cross-lingual understanding?
>> I happily contributed to the glossary of the UNESCO terminology translation of NIG from English to Arabic and I provided a lot of input as well as providing input to the African declaration and Arabic translation and making sure the concepts are translated accurately.  And I gave also feedback on its content as well.  If we compare both documents you will see that there are a lot of similarities between the charter and the African declaration, that there are like many ways we can actually consolidate the work that's being done rather than reinventing the wheel.  As you said, governance is one of the most challenging -- to translate not only in Arabic but in other languages, because in Arabic, for some people it means government simply, and when we want to have a discussion about Internet Governance, it becomes even more challenging because people think that you are talking about government controlling the Internet and it's not -- the outcome of the discussion is not usually very fruitful, so yes, I mean, would we do the -- when we do the translation obviously we try to do a translation of the concept and not literal, and for that we use people who are quite experienced in the field, and I do the proofreading myself because I'm very familiar with the concepts, you know, and, you know, the field in general.
What we did for the Arabic version is literally we focused more on the principles, like we provided the translation into Arabic but obviously the terms can be a little bit challenging for, you know, the grassroots we're targeting, and that's why we're focusing on providing design.  Rights campaign is focusing on the -- if you look at the design people can relate to what's going on in the Arab version and why the government is trying to control information and why people should care, actually, about, you know, preserving their rights on-line.
So we try to get a message -- you know, trying to translate these concepts in a simple way, but we also have a group of designers helping us deliver the information to the segment, you know, of the Internet user, because in the Arab region, I'll be frank with you, I mean, Internet almost equals Facebook, so for many -- for millions of people in the Arab region, the Internet is a tool to do, you know, social networking mostly.  We've seen, you know, recently a wave of innovation in other spaces but we're a completely different level in that part of the world with regards to preserving Internet riots on-line, and that's why we try to coin simple message so we speak to people in a simple way.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you, I'd like to invite someone to speak to that directly, and then go to new questions after that.  Who would like to speak to that -- to this directly?  Eduardo?
>> EDUARDO BERTONI: I just want to add something about translation.  I think these are great questions, and when the translation to the Spanish version, I was at that time -- in that moment talking about what we understand formally as a translation.  We have a document in English.  We put the document in Spanish.  The process, something is not very easy because some of the -- you know, wording or concept, even in English, are not very clear.  And you mentioned governance.  Governance -- governance has been changing.  Not all the people understand exactly the same.  So this is a very real challenge for the -- what I call the formal translation from one document in English, for example, to a document in Spanish.  But I also talk about translation in another sense, which is how -- Jamaica -- values that are in the off-line world to the on-line world.  So the charter helps to do this kind of translation as well, to understand that the content, the rights that we have in the off-line world should apply in the on-line world.  And this is another view -- I mean, this is another meaning of the -- a formal document from one language to the other.  Even in your own language you have to translate in some way concepts that are belonging and the judges are commonly used in the off-line world to the on-line world, particularly in situation where they don't have concrete regulations for the on-line world.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Silvia, would you like to speak to that?
>> SILVIA GRUNDMANN: Thank you, Robert.  Tying into that very briefly from a Council of Europe perspective, so what we are doing, we have a small unit in the media division for cooperation and assistance activities, and what we are doing now is we are using very concretely the guide and thereby indirectly -- but also to journalists, for instance, and I can illustrate that by a most recent programme that we have started, despite all the difficulties, we have started a big programme with Ukraine, with the help of the EU, the EU is footing the bill, and we have a team in place now in Kiev for this programme, with five people, and it has three components.  One is media, one is data protection, and one is everything around the Internet.  And so very concretely in this programme we are running -- to really get the shared set of values across directly to the people concerned.  Thank you.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you, Silvia, for that.  Marianne?
>> Thank you for the input.  Very briefly, every translation has been a team effort.  The German translation, the Spanish translation, particularly the new Turkish translation that is winging its way back from the airport right now, our flying squad is on its way, ransom having been paid.  What I want to emphasize is every term is discussed, there are negotiations, there are collaborations and this is actually very important about seeing the charter as a meeting making and a way to articulate norms and values but also to -- this is a form of implementation.  What Hanane is doing is a form of translation so implementations and --
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you for that.  I'd like to step in now and gather some questions.  So let's have a series of questions and perhaps we can answer them all together.  We had the man in the pink shirt first.  Did you have a question?  No?  Okay.  And in the back there, here, here and here.  So let's get a few questions really quickly with Wolfgang.
>> Quickly.  I was thinking about the challenges of the charter, and somehow I related to what Eduardo said recently to have the importance of a legal translation but somehow -- a form -- not a formal translation but the legal translation also.  And I'm thinking about the importance to use some kind of recommendation that already exists.  For instance, I'm trying to think about the last report of the rapporteur, the Human Rights regarding the Internet and Human Rights, and I think that's kind of the most important document that we have in hand to just improve what the charter, has been made in the past and suddenly to have a more concrete structure for law professors and practitioners and so on.  So I think that's the kind of thing that makes this charter important in the way that we use it, regionally speaking, to improve our Human Rights structure.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you for that.  Please introduce yourself.
>> My name is Ted palace.  I'm from Simon Frazier university in Canada.
>> DIXIE HAWTIN: You need to get really close to the mic.
>> Need to get really close.  I'll repeat it, I'm Ted palace from Simon Frazier university in Canada.  The thing I'm curious about is it's been interesting in hearing about the way the document has been flowing out, you know, to different countries, different organisations, and so forth.  And one of the things I'm curious about is just what its relation is to other organisations within the UN system.  So, for example, would the Human Rights Council be adopting something like this?  Is there a possibility for it to go to the General Assembly, for example, as a declaration along the lines of, say, the declaration on the rights of Indigenous Peoples that went through connection?
>> Thank you.
>> ROBERT BODLE: It you speak into the mic for the remote participants, please?
>> So one thing that I'm increasingly occupied with at national level is the long travel from formal standard setting into users' access to actual remedies, which is always a challenge with Human Rights, but in the on-line sphere it's -- it's a huge challenge.  So I think we need really to focus more on that.  We focused some on it in the Council of Europe work, on Internet -- I think it's very important to hear all these different national examples of how the standards of the charter have been translated at a national level, and I think we should really collect these experiences and have them on the Web site, but also increasingly move into the access to remedy problematic, so to speak.  So how are we dealing with that at various national contexts and what are some of the experiences that people have.  Because after a while, in these discussions, you also get a little bit tired from discussing standard setting and you increasingly hear from users that, okay, yes, you have these standards, but once I have an experience of a violation in a concrete setting I don't really have a lot of places to turn to.
>> ROBERT BODLE: That's a great question.  Thank you very much.  Great intervention.  I'd like Wolfgang to speak to that quickly and then we'll have one more question from the back.
>> Thank you.  Can I -- thank you, Chair, can I raise my question?  Thank you.  About the original implementation of this charter in Asia-Pacific because I didn't hear much about discussion about -- New Zealand and also we are happy to see the advancement in Africa -- Africa federation and also Arab states.  How about Asia, including east Asia and Southeast Asia.  I'm Hong from UNESCO.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you very much for that question.  More questions?
>> Thank you, I come from Thailand.  I understand the situation happening right now very much because in my country we have the Web site ban, and we try to reform our revise the law.  But however, when you're talking about terminology or the common understanding of the Human Rights on the Internet, we should have to maybe not understand -- so be careful about this because we have maybe -- the way of leaving, so maybe difference.  And one more piece I'd like to interest you to maybe enhance the important role to -- people to pay respect to the rights of the other person at the same time.  Thank you.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you for that.  Well, I'd like to have some responses to some of these questions now.
>> Okay.
>> Asia-Pacific, our next -- and the team to undertake the Mandarin translation of the charter.  We are finding that the charter booklet is an extraordinary way to open up the gates for people in specific regions, and to have it in your own language so Jong Hong, I think that's a very important point, it needs to be in Mandarin, needs to be in Thai, needs to be in Indonesian and then you can start work linking to organisations, those are the next steps.  We'll be meeting on Thursday afternoon to discuss exactly what to do next within the resources and time we have.  In terms of content issues and updating, this is a very, very important stage as well.  That again will be Thursday afternoon.  And there's one more challenge that somebody asked.  Oh, remedies.  Yes, Rica, that's extremely important.  I think we need to move not just from principles to action but from actually the sort of action that allows people to know, where do you go when it goes wrong?  Who do you ask?  Okay.  The right to be forgotten being one of the most -- having its problems.  So this is all work in progress.  Please Joan us so that we can move forward.  Thank you.
>> Let me just follow up on the point on remedies because this is important.  Charter has done a formidable job in raising awareness, but often people might get a bit frustrated when it comes to the implementation, as it has been said.  Now, you have according to the universal declaration to other documents like European convention, you have a right to an effective remedy, but in practice this is often the problem.  So I would like to refer you to the section in the explanatory memorandum of the Council of Europe guide for Internet users, which goes more deeply into this issue of remedies, and I wanted to emphasize that remedies do not concern only -- but also the private spheres, the companies.  And here there has been some progress made, those are after debates.  For example, with Facebook.  Facebook is now offering more options to the users.  They also have a grievance procedure, and they hope that users are using this properly because this will increase the peer pressure on such companies to offer more in terms of remedies.  The same is for remedies on the public side.  There are a few, not enough.  We need new, innovative remedies to you're called upon to contribute but also to use existing ones.  Thank you.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Thank you, Wolfgang, for that.  Thank you, Wolfgang.  For the sake of time I would invite you all to ask questions, either on Twitter or face-to-face or in our upcoming workshops.  We have a workshop on Thursday at 11:00, anonymity by design, Thursday afternoon the Internet rights and principles charter, five years on, and it would be a great time to meet and to join our coalition, and on Friday at 9:00 a.m. on-line freedoms and access to information on-line in partnership with Freedom House, and private party movement of Turkey.  And now I'd like to introduce a very exciting announcement, a soft launch, if you will.  Marianne?
>> MARIANNE FRANKLIN: Yes, Serhat -- Bitu, are in the room?  Selena, are you in the room?  Could we please have the Turkish cover?  As we know this is the soft launch, a soft landing and you will see the beautiful blue booklet shortly with us and also the click rights material as well at the Hivos booth.  Translations are a work of art.  They are legal undertakings, they are hard work and all our translations have been done with extraordinary commitment, engagement, enthusiasm and energy.  So we would like to now formally urge la the Turkish edition, the very first Turkish edition of the Charter of Human Rights and Principles of the Internet, with huge thanks to Gertrude -- excuse my pronunciation, and Celine --
>> (?)
>> Okay, who decided that the first version wasn't good enough and they had to improve it.  There's always room for improvement.  We think this is an incredibly important development, and 9:00, bring your coffee and your bagels, if they're available, or your lovely Turkish movement, and support the private part Turkey in a workshop at the IGF where we'll be featuring grassroots, local lawyers, Turkish activists.  Please debate, please support and we will show you the Turkish booklet and hard space copy, because print is good.  Print is good.  People neat print.  But also digital is good because now we can also show it here.  So it's not an either/or.  I'd like a big round of applause for Serhat and Celene -- for all their work.
>> ROBERT BODLE: Now I'd like a big round of applause for our panelists.  Thank you of that.
Please let's continue this discussion and thank you very much for your participation and your attention.  

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